WOMEN ROCK.

Meet Mhairi, a Software Developer at Huboo in Bristol. 2 years ago she was an Operations Lead for Dyson and hadn’t written a single line of code before, so Women Rock Ambassador Doug chatted with Mhairi about how and why she decided to jump into the wonderful world of Software Development – with zero experience!Her story is truly inspiring and if you are in the same boat as Mhairi was – where code was (quite literally) another language – read on to discover how to make the move!HI MHAIRI, THANKS SO MUCH FOR SHARING YOUR STORY WITH US! CAN YOU TALK US THROUGH HOW YOU CAME TO THE DECISION TO MAKE SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT YOUR FULLTIME CAREER AFTER HAVING NEVER WRITTEN CODE BEFORE?Yeah, so I would say that I’m very much a generalist and I’ve been lucky enough to have had exposure across a large breadth of different areas. My undergrad degree was originally in engineering and since then, I’ve worked in operations, programme management and strategy across several different sectors.My engineering background means that I am a data driven person, and with the exponential increase in the way we store and use data, I could see a lot of opportunity in expanding my skillset to keep up.The original plan was to do a part time masters in analytics whilst still working, but in 2019 I was made redundant along with a few hundred others as part of the Dyson Automotive project closure.Whilst at the time this was sad and unexpected – I spent about a solid week in the pubs of Bristol afterwards, I don’t mind telling you – it gave me a huge opportunity to stop and reflect on what I actually wanted to do next.I basically took all the things I liked about my previous roles – problem solving, data analysis and a need to improve an issue – and applied it to the kind of company I wanted to work for and the work I wanted to do.GOING FROM OPERATIONS LEAD TO WRITING CODE AS A SOFTWARE DEVELOPER MUST HAVE BEEN QUITE DAUNTING! CAN YOU TELL US YOUR STORY OF HOW YOU MADE THE MOVE AND TALK US THROUGH THE RESOURCES AND/OR COURSES THAT HELPED ON THIS JOURNEY?Of course. At the time, and this was just before COVID formally hit the UK, there were a plethora of online and in person courses available to learn software development. I chose a local Bristol based company, DevelopMe, after going along to an open night and being really impressed with the course material.Before enrolling I spent a lot of time on some of the free online resources available to get a feel for writing some front-end code. This was useful just to confirm to myself more than anything, that the idea I had in my head matched the reality of writing code.Unfortunately, when COVID hit, it obviously meant that we couldn’t study in person but the team at DevelopMe did an amazing job of turning the whole thing round to an online course in a very short space of time – they even sent us the beers and snacks!During lockdown, luckily, my plans didn’t have to change very much at all – I cannot say how thankful I was for that. Unfortunately, DevelopMe did not make it through the pandemic, but there are other similar options available.WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU HAVE FOR ANYONE ELSE WHO IS LOOKING TO RE-TRAIN IN SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT? AND ARE THERE ANY RESOURCES THAT YOU ARE AWARE OF NOW AND WISH YOU HAD HEARD OF WHEN YOU WERE MAKING THE MOVE?Firstly, make sure you know yourself including strengths, the things that you enjoy and, more importantly, the things you don’t.Use the abundance of free resources online to check if you like writing code before investing any money. There are plenty of other jobs in tech that might be worth considering including UX/UI, agile project management, dev ops or product management.Once you’re as sure as you can be at this stage, and don’t worry if you’re not you’re not signing anything in blood, start looking around for courses that are going to suit what you want to do and can fit around your commitments.I should mention at this point, there are plenty of self-taught developers out there however, if you’re anything like me, it’s worth investing in course and a bit of structure that will fast track you and help you prioritise the retraining.There are loads of online courses available, some free, some have fees and some offer certificates. There are also several coding bootcamps around the country which offer part time and full-time intensive courses.These are a big investment and although they often offer finance options, there are a few tips I can share that may help you choose one:Check their offerings – if you’re looking for part time, some may only offer full time courses which might not work for youOften course organisers host open nights or offer calls/in person appointments. Make use of these to ascertain whether you like the people, are clear on the syllabus, and that it will fit round your needsTry and find alumni to speak to and get their opinions on the course. Often you can meet them at the open nights or tech meetupsLook at the jobs that you would like to apply for and check their requirements. Compare these requirements to any syllabuses you’re reviewing to check that they are going to give you what you needThere are finance options out there so make sure you review what’s available to you and your circumstancesThere are loads of in person meetups, online communities and slack channels for all sorts of areas in development. I’ve found a mixture of experience at these events, and everyone is there for the same thing – meeting people and knowledge sharing. It’s worth going alongI would also encourage you to poke around in your current workplace. There is a huge shortage of developers at the moment and, depending on the company, they may have resources available to help support your retraining in houseConsider internship options and non-profit organisations like foundersandcoders.com/ which support minorities and people who maybe wouldn’t get the access otherwiseWhen are coding take lots of regular breaks – sometimes stepping away from a problem for a bit can actually help your brain process itA masters or undergrad is also an option however, this can be the more expensive route, and not always necessary. They also tend to be slower moving in updates to syllabuses due to the long-term nature of the course. Having said that, if this is your chosen route, there are some very relevant degrees out there particularly in analytics.Ultimately, it’s about learning how to learn and using transferable knowledge to apply it to a new problem. Try not to get too attached to one language as, I know everyone says this but it’s true, once you’ve learned one and the premise of object-oriented programming, you can apply that knowledge to any other new OOP language.Some of the resources I have used or can recommend are:Training and free resources:codecademy.com/ – Free and paid for courses in most languagesstackoverflow.com/ – Q&A forum which usually finds itself at the top of google searchesdeveloper.mozilla.org/ – Excellent documentation and resources for developerscoursera.org/ – Online free courses by University Professorsedx.org/ – Opensource courses governed by Harvard and MITfreecodecamp.org/ – Opensource educational communitycodewars.com/ – Coding challenge site for all levelscodepen.io/ – Website full of front-end examples and ideasPaid online subscriptions and courses:pluralsight.com/ – Courses on everything from data analysis to front-end but expensivelaracasts.com/ – Excellent resource for PHP and Laraveldatacamp.com/ – Resources for analytics and dataudemy.com/ – Multiple courses on almost everything CAN YOU TELL US A BIT ABOUT YOUR FIRST ROLE IN TECH? WHAT DID YOU LEARN? AND WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU HAVE FOR SOMEONE ELSE WHEN SELECTING THEIR FIRST ROLE IN TECH?Trying to get my first role in tech was tricky for me as it was right in the middle of 2020 and the pandemic. My role was in small start-up on the side of a more established business offering a product that was overcame some challenges raised by the pandemic.We worked as close-knit team of four to build a platform allowing self-employed trades people to manage and conduct virtual assessments, quotations, billing and invoicing completely remotely through a web app. We also partnered with banks to allow these clients to offer finance to their customers through using this platform.The small nature of the team meant that I was lucky to be thrown in at the deep end and got the opportunity to actively contribute large portions to the first version of the web app. The other side of this was that we didn’t have the resource for proper feature tests or QA before deployment, so I didn’t get a lot of exposure to certain areas within software development.The main piece of advice I would give to any junior is that the interview process is as much for you as it is for your potential employer. As a junior, it’s important you get the support and training required progress to higher level. Sometimes people can be optimistic on what taking on a junior developer entails, and don’t have the structure to support them. I’ve had friends leave their roles due to this so I’m aware that I was very lucky in my first role.FROM YOUR EXPERIENCE, HOW IMPORTANT IS DIVERSITY IN THE WORKPLACE?The system and society under which we work is inherently unfair, and prejudiced against anyone who doesn’t fit into very strange narrow norms that we’ve created for ourselves which can be seen in the data.STEM (science, technology, engineering and maths) is still very much a male dominated area. As of 2019 in the US, women represented under a quarter of people who worked in computing and less than 15% in engineering. Black, Hispanic and Asian people made up less that 40% of workforce in tech .Whilst in the UK, according to a 2020 report from The British Science Association, only 27% of the STEM workforce were female, 11% were Equality Act disabled, and at that time 65% of the workforce were white men .This means that in terms of design, there is huge potential for blind spots and discrimination to be built into our apps, algorithms, machine learning models and products from cars right through to breast pumps.A lot of us have benefited from the privilege we’ve inherited, but at the expense of others. To change and challenge this, we need to educate ourselves on the privilege we have and become part of the solution. This can be anything from challenging toxic behaviours in the workplace right through to getting actively involved in STEM initiatives that support underrepresented minorities.Invisible Women: Data Bias in a World Designed by Men by Caroline Criado-Perez, is a great read if you want to learn more about gender data bias in particular.I believe that diversity in the workplace not only produces more creativity and better engineering but supports a fairer society.WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO SOMEONE WHO HAS AN ESTABLISHED CAREER AND WANTS TO MOVE INTO TECH BUT IS A BIT APPREHENSIVE ABOUT HAVING TO START ALL OVER AGAIN?To be clear, I didn’t have any family commitments and as I mentioned before, I was made redundant, so I didn’t have to make the decision on whether to leave my current job – my current job no longer existed. This made it a lot easier to take the leap.I just threw myself in and did a full-time intensive course as a result but there are part time courses, funding and finance options available to help lessen the financial constraints. As mentioned before, ask your current workplace – they may have resources to support your career goals.I love learning and I’ve always felt like I had more to learn in whatever role I’ve been in, however, even with that mentality, I’ve still found it very humbling starting again. Be prepared to be a learner again, to ask questions and most importantly fight off the imposter syndrome. Be kind to yourself, no one else is expecting you to magically know everything after a year. Even senior developers, all the good ones anyway, will tell you they have lots to learn. When you’re in software you’re never done learning, which keeps it interesting.Play the long game. I took a pay cut to start again. I did a check with my outgoings to make sure I could afford to live, but I’ve had to make some serious lifestyle adjustments.Whilst experience in other fields helps, ultimately a company is paying for your knowledge in software so depending on where you are in your career, you may have to take that pay cut. The opportunity for progression that this kind of career can offer however, can make up for that – I’ve already started to close that gap.FINALLY IS THERE A QUOTE, MANTRA OR ATTITUDE THAT YOU LIVE BY EVERY DAY?Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Total cliché but it’s true in my head…Thanks Mhairi! You #ROCK!

This is the second time Natalie has sat down to chat with Gina Fielding because she continues to ROCK in the IT and tech industry! We have followed Gina’s journey closely and her career is going from strength to strength, so we are always excited to hear about her next chapter…GINA, GREAT TO HAVE YOU DOING ANOTHER WOMEN ROCK! LAST TIME WE SPOKE YOU WERE WORKING AS A SOFTWARE TEST ANALYST BUT HAD YOUR SIGHTS FIRMLY SET ON TAKING YOUR CAREER DOWN THE PRODUCT MANAGEMENT ROUTE, WHAT WAS IT THAT ATTRACTED YOU TO PRODUCT MANAGEMENT?Product management is a wonderful mix of technical and creative. You are involved in every phase of the product development process; from research to design to development to launch.Product management is about building products that solve a problem for people. This means talking to customers and learning about their goals, motivations and barriers. I want to build products that people love.I am a process driven person so I enjoy the design and development phase because you are translating the identified problem space into usable solutions.WELL, YOU CERTAINLY HAD A CLEAR DRIVE AND VISION AS YOU’VE MADE THAT GOAL A REALITY AND HAVE BEEN WORKING AS PRODUCT MANAGER FOR THE LAST 2 YEARS AT BASEKIT! HOW HAVE YOU FOUND THE TRANSITION AND WHAT SKILLS HAVE YOU FOUND TO BE MOST USEFUL?There are some similarities between Software Testing and Product Management so it’s not uncommon for a Product Manager to have a background in Testing. This is because a good Software Tester is process driven, inquisitive and they think outside the box which are all skills a good Product Manager has. So the transition into Product Management was not a difficult one as I already had these skills.I CAN IMAGINE YOU’VE ALSO LEARNT A LOT OF NEW SKILLS ALONG THE WAY, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY IT TAKES TO BE A GREAT PRODUCT MANAGER?To understand the solutions they should build, Product Managers need to use product discovery tools and frameworks, such as using qualitative data analysis to make evidence-based decisions instead of decisions based on personal opinion.A great Product Manager is a leader. They get the best out of teams by using good processes, and innovative tools and techniques. They encourage an environment where people feel empowered and can be their most creative. Product Managers also need to be able to work across teams. For example, working with Marketing to create messaging for the product.A great Product Manager never stops learning. And that means looking outside of their workplace, picking up tips from others in the industry. They are regularly looking to deepen their knowledge and explore new tools. They also share that knowledge with others.SOMETIMES IT CAN BE DAUNTING TO TAKE THE LEAP AND CHANGE YOUR ROLE, WHAT WOULD YOUR ADVICE BE TO ANYONE CONSIDERING GOING DOWN A DIFFERENT CAREER PATH?I am thoughtful about my career, looking at how to progress and what next steps to take.You need to know yourself, understand your strengths and weaknesses and what you actually enjoy doing. You have to accept that you are going to make mistakes and learn from them. I went into automation testing because I thought that was the next step for me. But it did not play to my strengths and I did not enjoy it.Product management is a passion as well as my job. I think it’s important to love what you do. I love challenges and I love to learn.WAS THERE ANYTHING THAT BASEKIT DID TO HELP SUPPORT YOU WITH YOUR CAREER PROGRESSION AND IS THERE ANYTHING YOU THINK COMPANIES CAN BE DOING MORE OF TO HELP WOMEN?I have always been good at identifying gaps in processes and thinking of ways to bridge them. BaseKit’s Development team has always supported me and has been open to my ideas. The team has allowed a lot of experimentation which has really paid off and our team works more efficiently than ever.I made it clear to BaseKit when I interviewed for the Software Tester position that my aim was to become a Product Manager. BaseKit hired me with the understanding that I wanted to progress my career and supported me in doing this by allowing me to take on Product Manager responsibilities and implement process changes while I was a Tester. My value was recognised and I was quickly promoted to Product Manager. I think many tech companies still hold on to overly hierarchical forms of management, even small companies like BaseKit struggle with this. This can hinder creativity and makes the business less innovative. This hierarchical approach can shut women out as senior teams are often still very male. For a company to be innovative they must be willing to take risks and experiment with new ways of working. Innovative ideas can come from younger and diverse team members who have had a different experience.YOU’RE QUITE PASSIONATE ABOUT ENCOURAGING MORE FEMALES INTO THE TECH INDUSTRY, WHY DO YOU THINK THERE ARE SO LITTLE IN TECH?I would say the three main causes are problems with gender stereotyping (e.g. boys are better at technology) so that girls do not consider tech as an option for them; a perception of a programming ‘nerd’ culture which can appear male however I have never found it to be like that and finally a lack of female role models in tech.SO, WHAT WAS IT THAT ORIGINALLY GOT YOU INTO TECH?I got into the tech industry because I developed an interest in filmmaking, so I gained skills in camera operating and video editing software. I also learnt to work in teams and organise projects. This helped me get an apprenticeship in Digital Marketing when I was 18 for a software company making assistive technology for people with disabilities. I would visit our customers and record them interacting with our technology and talking about their experiences.Seeing how the technology helped our customers in such a significant way made me want to move into software development. My understanding of development teams was limited. I did not know about the many other roles that made up the team, such as Product Managers, Designers, Testers. Once I understood what a Product Manager’s role was, I realised that Product Management was my calling.NOW YOU’RE IN THE TECH WORLD, WHAT MESSAGE WOULD YOU LIKE TO GET ACROSS FOR WHAT IT’S LIKE AND WHAT DOORS CAN IT OPEN?I don’t feel like tech is viewed as creative by people outside of the industry. So I want to get across how fun and creative tech is and how you can be more valued in tech than you are in other creative industries. You don’t need a strong background in technology to get in – we all have transferable skills. There are a whole variety of jobs and once you are in, it is easier to move around and learn what you enjoy doing.WHAT MORE DO YOU THINK CAN BE DONE TO GET MORE WOMEN INTO TECH?I think our education system is dated; as a result we rely too much on people discovering technology for themselves. I think we should be offering more apprenticeships in tech and promoting apprenticeships in schools. Companies should look at how they could take on and support apprentices. We need more female role models so companies should focus on retaining their female staff and promote appropriately. When I go for interviews, seeing a diverse senior team is encouraging.THIS YEAR’S IWD THEME WAS BREAK THE BIAS. I WANT TO KNOW WHAT BIAS IT IS THAT YOU’D LIKE TO BREAK AND WHY?I want to break the bias against women requesting a good starting salary and future pay rises. Part of the problem with the pay gap between male and female employees is the ‘ask gap’. Women can often feel uncomfortable asking for a good salary, worrying about coming across as pushy in negotiations and anxious about their work, whilst men are more comfortable in asking for a higher salary and are less fearful of a backlash.If women ask for a low starting salary the problem compounds as the starting salary is then used as a measure for future pay rises. There is a lack of understanding about this in senior management who may themselves perceive pay expectations in a gendered way. I would like to encourage tech companies to know the worth of their female employees.AND OF COURSE, LET’S FINISH BY SHARING YOUR FAVOURITE QUOTE…“If you are always trying to be normal, you will never know how amazing you can be.” Maya Angelou Once again you have totally ROCKED Gina! Thanks so much for speaking to us again and we cannot wait to see your next chapter!

Continuing with our ‘Meet the Women Rock Ambassadors’, founder, Alicia chats with Aoibheann, Jamie, Eleanor and Ben about why they wanted to get involved in this movement, what diversity means to them and how they see the landscape of ED&I changing. Alicia started Women Rock to let folk have a voice and make a positive change in the tech industry by empowering the groups that don’t usually get the recognition they deserve.The whole of the Women Rock team feel so passionate about these subjects and we hope you enjoy meeting the gang on a more personal level! Each ambassador has a story to tell and this week we get a peek into the wonderful brains and lives of Aoibheann, Jamie, Eleanor and Ben…Keep rocking!AOIBHEANN – SENIOR CONSULTANTWHAT DOES DIVERSITY MEAN TO YOU?Diversity means that everyone feels represented and comfortable bringing their entire selves to the table.WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE TO COMPANIES ON HOW TO ATTRACT THE BEST DIVERSE TALENT?As a data recruiter, I’m obviously going to suggest figuring out a user-friendly way of collecting and making sense of diversity data of people already in your company. If you don’t know what groups aren’t represented in your teams, it’ll be super tough to know where to focus your efforts on balancing the scales.IF YOU COULD CHANGE ONE THING ABOUT THE WORLD, WHAT WOULD IT BE?The list is long, but based on my walk to work this morning, if cat calling was a thing of the past that would be fabulous.WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR BIGGEST SUCCESS TO DATE & WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR BIGGEST CHALLENGE TO DATE?Making the career switch from radiology to recruitment!I still often pinch myself that instead of rolling up to an A&E night shift and grabbing my Xray machine, I get to support awesome tech for good companies scale their teams 😅It’s probably my biggest challenge too, but definitely the most rewarding!IF YOU WERE A SONG WHAT SONG WOULD YOU BE?‘You Can Do It’ – Caribou 🕺 JAMIE – SENIOR CONSULTANTWHAT DOES DIVERSITY MEAN TO YOU?An environment whereby everyone regardless of gender, sexuality or ethnicity gets paid and treated exactly the same (in line with their job and responsibilities obviously). Having views and opinions from people from different backgrounds surely only enriches experiences, which can only be a positive thing.WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE TO COMPANIES ON HOW TO ATTRACT THE BEST DIVERSE TALENT?Do more than just have a token gesture about D&I on their career page. I’ve seen some amazing websites when searching for people to interview for Women Rock that breakdown the diversity in their teams into gender, ethnicity, and sexuality. Even if it’s not where you want it to be, you can include a target diagram along with it to demonstrate it’s something you genuinely care about.IF YOU COULD CHANGE ONE THING ABOUT THE WORLD, WHAT WOULD IT BE?Not D&I related, but it would have to be to stop fu**ing up the planet so much. You can have the most diverse workforce in the world but if there’s no world to enjoy it in, then there’s not much point.WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR BIGGEST SUCCESS TO DATE & WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR BIGGEST CHALLENGE TO DATE?My son.My son.But in all seriousness, my biggest professional achievement would be my £100k month. For sure.My biggest challenge would have been the 14 months I spent as a stay-at-home dad looking after Cooper. It sounds crazy but that sh*! is hard! I’d take a 100 hour work week anytime.IF YOU WERE A SONG, WHAT SONG WOULD YOU BE?This has literally taken me over a week to think about.Bob Marley – Three Little BirdsNot for any real reason other than it’s the song I used to sing to Cooper to get him to go to sleep. It’s also a kind of a family motto song “don’t worry about a thing, cuz every little thing is gonna be alreet”.ELEANOR – CONSULTANTWHAT DOES DIVERSITY MEAN TO YOU?Diversity to me is all people, regardless of background, race, age, gender, being allowed to thrive and be their best, true self. We are all held back by stereotypes and bias and it’s sad when you think about how much untapped potential and talent is out there because of these arbitrary and pointless structures society has in place! However, things have changed a lot and continue to shift in a positive direction so it’s good to appreciate how far things have come.WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE TO COMPANIES ON HOW TO ATTRACT THE BEST DIVERSE TALENT?My advice would be to ensure that you are offering benefits such as flexible working so that people from all walks of life can consider your company. I read something that said that the 9-5, 5 days in the office working week came about because men who did that had a wife at home running the household, who took care of all the life admin, freeing men up to work in this way. Things aren’t like that anymore, and people struggle to fit their life in around work, meaning they aren’t 100% on top form in either their personal or work lives. At SR2 we have so much flexibility, the long lunches, late starts and homeworking policy, which has been revolutionary to me and now I can’t imagine working any differently. When a company gives you flexibility and trust in this way it’s an acknowledgement that people have priorities and responsibilities, and that acknowledgement will result in a diverse workforce.IF YOU COULD CHANGE ONE THING ABOUT THE WORLD, WHAT WOULD IT BE?The world that we live in is so horrendously unequal, from gender inequality to the hoarding of resources to wealth disparity. There are more than enough resources on earth for every single person to live a healthy, happy and fulfilled life. I would change this inequality but also change people’s attitudes to it, because we don’t have to accept society as it is. I really love this line from a Philip Larkin poem ‘we should be careful of each other, we should be kind, while there is still time’, which sums up how I feel. It doesn’t have to be this way and another world is possible.WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR BIGGEST SUCCESS TO DATE & WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR BIGGEST CHALLENGE TO DATE?My biggest challenge was working in the public sector as it stifled my activism and was making me miserable. You spend most of your time at work so when you’re unhappy in that environment it impacts every other part of your life. Now I’m out of it I can see how unsuited to it I was and how happy I am now in comparison 😊My biggest success in life is 100% my friendships! I’ve been friends with the same people all through school and university and even though we all live different lives and are busy in our own way we are still so close. I feel most like myself when I’m in their company. They are my greatest achievement in life, and I feel very lucky 😊IF YOU WERE A SONG, WHAT SONG WOULD YOU BE?These Days by Nico, just because it’s followed me around in life and I always go back to it. BEN – SENIOR CONSULTANTWHAT DOES DIVERSITY MEAN TO YOU?Having a varied team of people where it doesn’t look like you’ve pressed Ctrl-C & Ctrl-V X 100 times, and then creating an environment where people feel they can be themselves.WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE TO COMPANIES ON HOW TO ATTRACT THE BEST DIVERSE TALENT?Work out what is essential to you as a business and focus on that. I have heard a lot of companies where they have a great feeling about someone, but they don’t match every criteria on a list of 20 things. I would say it’s better to find someone who smashes your top 3 requirements than scrapes the bottom 17.IF YOU COULD CHANGE ONE THING ABOUT THE WORLD, WHAT WOULD IT BE?Forgoing the obvious ones, I think if more people were working for the right companies the world would be a better place. As I walk over Tower Bridge & London Bridge when I walk to / leave work I would say 90% of people are trudging. Thinking about my own journey I am the happiest I have ever been and a big part of that (there are others!) is that I love what I do, I think it’s hard to feel fully content if you hate your job.WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR BIGGEST SUCCESS TO DATE & WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR BIGGEST CHALLENGE TO DATE?Looking at my great friends and family I think they are all the ‘bees’ knees’ which means I must be doing something right as they can’t all be wrong! Imposter Syndrome! Shout out to our own Sophie Eadon for helping me realise what it’s called. Particularly having been at a couple of companies where things maybe haven’t worked out, you do start to doubt yourself when things aren’t going right.IF YOU WERE A SONG, WHAT SONG WOULD YOU BE?Ain’t No Mountain High Enough – Marvin Gaye, Tammi Terrell – No justification just an absolute banger. Could try and spin it as being about overcoming obstacles, but I’d be lying, it’s just a tune.

Want to break the mould? Want to make real change? Want to smash the status quo?Jacob spoke to the incredibly gifted and talented Ebony Allison about her the beginnings of her story in Engineering, her challenges, what we can do to implement real change to an aging industry and a lot more.It was both parts insightful and inspiring to hear the almost nonchalant attitude to Ebony making waves in the Engineering world and we cannot wait to see how her story grows through the years as she innovates and inspires the future!This one’s definitely worth a read to make you smile through this unfortunately grey and wet summer! WHAT WAS THE MOMENT YOU REALISED YOU WANTED A CAREER IN TECH?I really didn’t have a plan, I tend to live life on a whim and just go with what I feel like in the moment, I didn’t fully realise that I was classed as tech or stem until already working in it. I chose to study maths and physics at A-level without knowing what careers could come from it, it wasn’t until I met with a careers advisor at college that he told me to consider engineering which I’d never heard of. I then went on a ‘gifted and talented’ trip to Newcastle University where I soldered together a heartbeat monitor – which was my first time soldering! I hadn’t even heard of soldering. From this point onwards I decided to study electronic engineering at university which naturally led me to a career in tech starting with robotics but now I’m in consumer electronics in the R&D team.MOST INFLUENTIAL PERSON/PERSONS IN YOUR EARLY CAREER?I didn’t have any particular role models as I didn’t actually meet any engineers until I was already working in the industry. I just knew in myself what I wanted to study and the fear of failure is what gave me motivation. I just really enjoyed learning about electronics and knew that my best chance at success needs to be in something I enjoy otherwise I’d get bored. Also, being constantly told not to do electronics because I don’t fit in was the cherry on the cake to keep me motivated in low moments.WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO UNDERREPRESENTED MINORITIES AND FEMALES TO INSPIRE THEM TO PURSUE A CAREER IN TECH/ENGINEERING?I think the one main selling point in engineering/tech is that your skills can do the talking. For example, if your hardware/code works, it works, no one can take that away from you! Being a minority in this old-fashioned industry can be extremely difficult and tiring but I use it as motivation to get better at my skills so no one can complain and say I’m not good at what I do. We can’t control other people’s attitudes so it’s important to not let their negativity dull your shine because you’re the one that will suffer, we have every right to work in an industry that we enjoy and there are so many supportive people; the aim is to not let the loud old-fashioned minority stop you from pursuing your career.WHAT DO YOU THINK WE CAN DO TO REALLY ACCELERATE THESE CHANGES IN IT/ENGINEERING?I think companies should put in effort to show support for change, be vocal about the lack of diversity as a lot of people don’t really understand that there is a problem. Companies need to speak to their minorities employees about how it feels to work in the company as the percentage of women that stay in the industry longer than two years is still very low. I think for the younger generation it is important when running STEM activities to have mixed-gender groups so from early the younger generation are used to working alongside the opposite gender to abolish the notion that boys are better at maths and science.WHAT DO YOU DO IN YOUR DOWN TIME?In my spare time I like to practice self-care haha.. love a face mask, fruit tea and a Netflix binge and TikTok crawl or the opposite; doing my makeup and going out for food and drinks with friends.Thanks so much Ebony… you rock! #womenrockInterview by Jacob CookA voice for diversity in Tech & Engineering <3I: @womenrockbristolT: @womenrockbrstl

Women Rock Ambassador Sophie is fascinated with alternative therapy and tech when it comes to mental health and wellbeing so when she chatted with Kim Palmer, Founder of the Clementine App, she was in her element!Clementine is an app by women, for women who struggle with anxiety and all that it brings – insomnia, low self-esteem or just overwhelmed with the daily grind. The app has amazing tools- all based on a range of hypnotherapy sessions and courses, that help build confidence and reduce anxiety and BOSS life!HEY KIM! SO EXCITED TO MEET YOU AND FIND OUT MORE ABOUT YOUR JOURNEY AND HOW CLEMENTINE CAME ABOUT. CAN YOU START BY TELLING ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOU?Well first off I’m a kiwi, I moved to England back in 2006 so I’ve been here for yonks but I hold a lot of strong values from growing up in NZ. My husband and I have two young boys – Louis and Kingsley so we have a very chaotic and busy home life – it’s very noisy. Before starting Clementine I spent most of my career working in consumer loyalty marketing – working for some well known household brands like Tesco. To fast forward a little, it was when I was working at a Tesco owned start-up called Blinkbox that I had a rather epic mental health breakdown. I started experiencing panic attacks (whilst I was pregnant) and ended up going into a dark hole for a few years where I totally lost my voice and my confidence. It was when I found hypnotherapy that I started to get better and this became part of my inspiration many years later to start Clementine.SORRY TO HEAR THAT AND ABSOLUTE PROPS TO YOU FOR SEEKING HELP AND USING THIS EXPERIENCE TO CREATE THIS INCREDIBLE PLATFORM. CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THE CLEMENTINE JOURNEY SO FAR?Sure thing, well it was at the beginning of 2016 that I started to think about taking a different path in my career and one that might lead to me being able to be my own boss and work more flexibly. I also really felt it was time to make some impact in the world and that’s when I decided to start a side hustle. I spent 9 months building Clementine whilst I was still working and launched the app onto iOS in Nov 2017. I absolutely loved having something else to focus on and it was sort of like having another baby. My husband and I fully funded the project and I spent the next two years learning everything I could (making lots of mistakes) about how to build a business. During this time we managed to secure some great support from Apple (we were app of the day twice) and coverage in a lot of press (The Guardian, Telegraph, Stylist etc) and the community started to grow.It was in 2019 that I felt that I could no longer keep working, support two children and run Clementine – I was left feeling very burnt out. So it was crunch time to make a decision about whether to go any further with Clementine and well, that’s when I quit my job. I knew the first job to do was to raise some funds (not an easy task) and so it was after months and months of building a business plan and pitching that I secured our first £1m. I’ll fast forward a little. Today we have a team of 4 of us (that includes me) and we are trying to work out a sustainable way to grow our impact. It’s not easy but I do pinch myself every so often as it’s awesome to work on something that genuinely helps people and also a big one for me is to work in a way that suits my family too.AND CAN YOU PLEASE SHARE A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT A TYPICAL DAY IS LIKE FOR YOU?We get up just before 7am. We all eat breakfast and sit down at the table together. This is an important ritual for me as it helps me to feel more grounded knowing that I know how everyone in the family is.My partner does the school drop off and when they leave I do some form of exercise – either a run or a walk most days. This is another important ritual for me as movement helps me to keep my mind feeling better.I start work around 9am – oh I should say that I work from home. During the day I try really hard not to do any housework as I find it really distracting. I almost always stop for lunch for 30minutes – and I’ll eat at our kitchen table away from my work. I do the kids pick up at 3.30pm and I don’t usually get back until after 5pm. En route I will do some homework with my eldest. Back at home either my partner and I will cook. Whilst dinner is getting ready we will do more homework or if it’s nicer weather go outside and throw a ball around with the kids.Dinner is early around 5.45pm and we all eat together as a family – again this is another ritual. Finding out how everyone is doing. It’s chaotic but I like it. A couple of nights a week I will have a bath with the kids – another ritual. I’ve found that this is the perfect time for my eldest to share what’s on his mind in a relaxing environment. A couple of nights a week I head to our local gym for boxing and lifting club. On the nights that I’m not at the gym then I do log back into work when the kids are in bed (7pm) and usually work for about 2.5 hours)Gosh writing that all seems a bit boring!NOT AT ALL! BUSY, BUT NOT BORING! WHAT DO YOU THINK WOMEN USE THE CLEMENTINE APP FOR MOST?Our most popular sessions are sleep by quite someway. But we know that a lot of women come to the app to help with their anxiety – which impacts sleep. So they start with sleep and then start to move onto our morning and pick me up sessions to build stronger mindsets.WHAT WOULD YOU SAY IS THE BIGGEST MISCONCEPTION ABOUT HYPNOTHERAPY?That you are going to lose control of your thoughts and that you could end up clucking around like a chicken. It’s actually the complete opposite – you become more in control of your thoughts – we help you with the positive suggestions and the space to reconnect with your own thoughts in a super relaxing way, but you won’t lose control.WHY IS IT DO YOU THINK THAT WE HAVE SEEN SUCH A HUGE RISE IN ‘WELLTECH’ COMPANIES IN THE PAST 2-3 YEARS?I think there are a few reasons for this – unfortunately people aren’t turning to their GP’s for support for their mental wellbeing and so look elsewhere for support and because it’s so easy to search these days we have taken matters into our own hands when it comes to finding support. The narrative around mental health has changed dramatically in the past 5 years too. Moving from no one talking about it or even understanding what it was and how important it was to build strong mental health, to everyone talking about it and finally people realising that it’s just as important as our physical health. Then obviously technology has improved so that it’s easy for people like myself to build bespoke solutions without spending millions of dollars.IT’S NO SECRET THAT MANY WOMEN IN THE TECH INDUSTRY HAVE FELT THEIR GENDER HAS AFFECTED THE WAY THAT THEY ARE PERCEIVED OR TREATED. HAVE YOU EVER BEEN IN A SITUATION LIKE THAT? HOW DID YOU HANDLE IT?For me it’s been a lot more obvious when I became a mum. Questions from investors about the age of my children and assuming that perhaps I wouldn’t be able to cope. Questions about my working patterns and assuming that not working 9-5pm meant that I wasn’t fully committed.WHAT ARE YOUR PROUDEST ACHIEVEMENTS BOTH PERSONALLY AND PROFESSIONALLY?Hmmmm good question – I do feel quite proud of the way I managed to pivot my entire career and build a business that at it’s heart is trying to solve a massive problem. This makes me feel really proud.Personally I’m proud of how I’ve moved away from always striving for things like happiness, success, balance, perfection. Striving was a big part of why I developed such bad anxiety and panic attacks and now I realise that the key to feeling good is to focus on the everyday. Find joy in the small things that happen everyday and it does leave you feeling better.WHAT’S THE BEST PIECE OF ADVICE YOU HAVE EVER RECEIVED?This will sound a bit cheesy but it was a boss who told me to trust my intuition and to not always have to find the words to describe by intuition immediately. Step back and work out what it is that my intuition could be saying and then step back into situations and explain my POV. I always used to get lost for words when I was in situations where I felt overwhelmed by groups. But I would know deep down that I would have something valuable to say or a strong point of view but couldn’t quite speak.I THINK THERE’S A FEW OF US THAT CAN RELATE TO THAT. WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE TO SOMEONE WHO WAS THINKING ABOUT CHANGING A CAREER PATH THEY HAVE BEEN ON FOR MOST OF THEIR WORKING LIFE?Ok so honestly I’m not a huge believer in giving advice to other people. I kind of feel that everyone needs to find their own way, their own learnings and that. I suppose this idea of finding your own way could be deemed as advice. Trying to not compare your life to others can be incredibly freeing.IMPORTANT QUESTIONS: IF YOU WERE A SONG, WHAT WOULD IT BE? (WE’VE HAD EVERYTHING FROM SNOOP DOG TO CHAKA KHAN!)Oh that’s a super hard question. I do love Bohemian Rhapsody – I love how it has so many different parts to it like it’s made of so many different genres. I guess I feel like I’m a bit like that.FINALLY – ONE TOP TIP FOR THE WOMEN AT WOMEN ROCK ON HOW TO BOSS LIFE?!Don’t strive to boss life! Focus on what makes you feel good everyday and do more of that stuff and less of the stuff that makes you feel like shit.Amazing! Thanks Kim – you rock! And so does Clementine!If you think you would benefit from the Clementine App, you can download it from both the App Store and Goggle Play 

I started Women Rock to create a movement, I wanted to let folk have a voice, I wanted to make a real change when it came to ED&I. I wanted Women Rock to have a positive change on our industry and for us all to share stories about careers, challenges and successes. Also to celebrate the awesome things companies are doing to attract, retain and promote diverse talent. Almost 4 years on Women Rock is doing everything it was set out to do but we’re not slowing down.I’m super proud of the Women Rock ambassador team who share the same passion as myself and who are out to make a change in the tech industry by supporting underrepresented folk. In 2021 our diversity placements were an awesome 46.3% which is well above industry standard. This year we want to increase this to over 50% and expand our reach, meet new folk, hear and share new stories + so much more, did someone say a festival……This is a group effort and would love to introduce the Women Rock ambassadors.I have to say, my favorite quote when chatting to the team came from Mr Steve Dalley, when asked ‘If you could change one thing about the world what would it be? ‘’Any confectionery item produced with chocolate and orange should be made a crime.’’ We were talking about ED&I but each to their own you orange hater! Lol! And in the spirit of ED&I we celebrate all varieties of chocolate – even coffee Revels…Keep rocking!SOPHIE – MARKETING AND COMMUNITY MANAGERWHAT DOES DIVERSITY MEAN TO YOU?Variety is the spice of life – an oldie but a goodie! But to me, diversity is exactly that – the spice of life, exciting and interesting. I love to learn from people of all walks of life and from a variety of backgrounds. I feel like diversity is something of a buzzword at the moment, and those companies that look at diversity as a trend will only miss out on the depth and value that a true diverse organisation brings.WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE TO COMPANIES ON HOW TO ATTRACT THE BEST DIVERSE TALENT?I may be biased as a content creator…but content is key when companies are trying to attract a more diverse work force. Think about the audience you are trying to engage with and then look at the topics that effect/ interest them – different cultural events and celebrations for example – then create content, for your blog, social channels etc that is still authentic to your brand (you don’t want this to look like a tick box exercise) but a lot more inclusive.IF YOU COULD CHANGE ONE THING ABOUT THE WORLD, WHAT WOULD IT BE?Not to sound like a pageant princess or anything…but peace! No more war, a peaceful world where we can all just live our lives how we want, without judgement, hate, jealously and greed.WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR BIGGEST SUCCESS TO DATE & WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR BIGGEST CHALLENGE TO DATE?Biggest success to date is proving to myself and others I can work for amazing brands all around the world without a uni degree!! I’ve moved a lot in my career – Leamington to Sydney, Sydney to London, London to Bristol and hustled HARD. Biggest challenge is similar to my biggest success, in that I have not only rocked up in a new city, knowing no-one, but also had to wrap my head around a recruitment brand to market! But so far so good (I think)IF YOU WERE A SONG WHAT SONG WOULD YOU BE?Kate Bush – Running Up That Hill – To me it’s about overcoming fears by being vulnerable and that’s something I’m working on…also, Kate Bush is a vibe. ANDY HAZEL – PRINCIPLE CONSULTANTWHAT DOES DIVERSITY MEAN TO YOU?For me, Diversity is the openness to accept different backgrounds, beliefs and values without question or judgement.WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE TO COMPANIES ON HOW TO ATTRACT THE BEST DIVERSE TALENT?Think about what you can do to help attract diverse talent at entry level, to help address the long-term issue rather than solving a short-term fix.IF YOU COULD CHANGE ONE THING ABOUT THE WORLD, WHAT WOULD IT BE?War. Human beings should be battling to co-exist for the longevity of our planet and all species on earth, rather than fighting each other because of different beliefs and desires.WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR BIGGEST SUCCESS TO DATE & WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR BIGGEST CHALLENGE TO DATE?Success: being consistently recognised by friends, family, and colleagues as someone who goes out of their way to help people.Challenge: Being consistently confident in the person I am, and not changing my personality to make others happy.IF YOU WERE A SONG, WHAT SONG WOULD YOU BE?Bohemian Rhapsody – Queen. There are lots of different parts to me that can often be a surprise!CHARLOTTE BAKER – SENIOR CONSULTANTWHAT DOES DIVERSITY MEAN TO YOU?To me, diversity means zero judgement. You can be who you want, wear what you want, look how you want, say what you want (within reason lol) and not feel judged, worried, or stereotyped. A world where you can fully embrace and appreciate others ❤WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE TO COMPANIES ON HOW TO ATTRACT THE BEST DIVERSE TALENT?Be open minded, especially when reviewing CVs! Just because a candidate doesn’t have X number of years, or skills with a certain technology doesn’t mean they can’t do the job. If you’re on the fence, then set up an initial chat. You never know, they may really impress you and end up being one of the best hires you’ve ever made!IF YOU COULD CHANGE ONE THING ABOUT THE WORLD, WHAT WOULD IT BE?Get rid of social media.WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR BIGGEST SUCCESS TO DATE & WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR BIGGEST CHALLENGE TO DATE?My biggest success is currently happening right now. I have been through a lot at SR2 and have faced loads of challenges, but I think my biggest success is being able to turn these negative experiences into a positive one. I’m now doing the best I’ve ever done, and soon going to be promoted to Principal and I wouldn’t have got here if I didn’t have the strength to push through. Recruitment isn’t easy, everyone knows that – so I’m super proud that I’ve got to where I am. Without sounding big-headed 😂The biggest challenge for me was a life experience one when I lost a family member very close to me. I’m super open about speaking about this because there might be someone out there experiencing something similar. It was an extremely difficult time for me, but it’s made me stronger and is probably played a part in getting to where I am right now.IF YOU WERE A SONG, WHAT SONG WOULD YOU BE?Dancing in the Moonlight – Toploader (tune) STEVE DALLEY – SENIOR CONSULTANTWHAT DOES DIVERSITY MEAN TO YOU?Diversity is about not only addressing the imbalance we see in the industry but also is about breeding fresh ideas and innovation with stems from those with varied and mixed backgrounds.WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE TO COMPANIES ON HOW TO ATTRACT THE BEST DIVERSE TALENT?There are multiple ways to attract diverse talent but can start from the initial advert about a particular role or opportunity. Companies need to consider the language being used and how requirements are portrayed in the advert. Portraying and creating an inclusive company culture is key to bringing in and retaining a diverse talent pool. Recommendations and referrals will occur naturally if this is created helping grow and increase diversity. Finally, companies can look to participate in particular events and initiatives such as ‘Women Rock’ as these are pushed and published to underrepresented groups and therefore, creates an opportunity for companies to portray their values and get their name out there driving engagement from these particular groups.IF YOU COULD CHANGE ONE THING ABOUT THE WORLD, WHAT WOULD IT BE?Any confectionery item produced with chocolate and orange should be made a crime.WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR BIGGEST SUCCESS TO DATE & WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR BIGGEST CHALLENGE TO DATE?Outside of work, my biggest success has been obtaining a 1st class degree at university. Inside of work, I would say reaching a recruitment milestone of £10k per week.My biggest challenge has probably been completing the Bristol half marathon with virtually no training. This was slightly harder than expected!IF YOU WERE A SONG, WHAT SONG WOULD YOU BE?Hips don’t lie – Shakira CAITLIN SWENY – HEAD OF CULTURE OPS & PEOPLEWHAT DOES DIVERSITY MEAN TO YOU?Diversity to me is having variety in every sense of the word – thoughts, actions, personalities, experiences & backgrounds. Celebrating being different and not being held back by those differences.WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE TO COMPANIES ON HOW TO ATTRACT THE BEST DIVERSE TALENT?Not treating diversity as a tick boxing exercise. Being open and honest about where you are currently, and the challenges faced in the past with attracting diverse talent. Really understanding and educating others on what a diverse workforce will bring to their teams. Make sure ED&I runs through their company culture and not just recruitment processes.IF YOU COULD CHANGE ONE THING ABOUT THE WORLD, WHAT WOULD IT BE?Time. Can you imagine time not existing and everything being free of having a limit or end?!WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR BIGGEST SUCCESS TO DATE & WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR BIGGEST CHALLENGE TO DATE?Success: Discovering SR2, the purpose it has given me, and the incredible opportunities & experiences it has unfolded for me 💙.Challenge: Getting to grips with believing and understanding the above 👆IF YOU WERE A SONG, WHAT SONG WOULD YOU BE?American Pie – Don McLean. Long-winded, organised chaos 😅.

Michelle Tian is the Co-Founder and CTO of Passionfroot – a Berlin-based start-up that aims to unlock the full potential of the creator economy and help pave the way for a more equitable future. Eleanor from Team Germany at SR2 sat down with her to find out what makes her tick, what she thinks Millennials can learn from Gen Z, and what companies can do to ensure diversity and inclusion aren’t just buzzwords.HI MICHELLE! IT’S SO GREAT TO MEET YOU – TO START WOULD YOU BE ABLE TO TELL US A LITTLE ABOUT YOUR STORY SO FAR?I grew up near Silicon Valley and was always surrounded by technology growing up. I ended up studying Computer Science at UC Berkley and ended up working for Apple as an intern and then Airbnb. There I was working on payments processing and honestly really enjoyed it – I think that Airbnb gave me a lot of opportunities to learn about things outside of the engineering side of the business, so I worked alongside the accountants and legal team, I had great mentors and managers there too. Then I wanted to relocate to Berlin, so I moved in March 2020 right at the beginning of the pandemic. I worked for Shopify here, and it was during that time that Jen (Passionfroot’s cofounder) reached out to me. At the time I wasn’t really expecting to start a company with someone that I didn’t know but Jens and I were all very aligned on wanting to build a company that’s very diverse and inclusive. We wanted to build a company that empowered creators or any person to work on their own terms. I started working on Passionfroot full time from Dec 2021 and now working on getting the product off the ground.CAN YOU SUM UP WHAT PASSIONFROOT IS IN 30 SECONDS?Our vision for Passionfroot is to build a business management platform for creators. We basically want to help anyone who is creating content online, whether that’s writing newsletters, making podcasts, vlogging, posting educational content on twitter – we basically want to help them run their business more smoothly, and manage the ‘back office’ and the administrative workflows of content creation.WHY IS BERLIN THE BEST PLACE TO WORK IN TECH/ FOUND A START-UP?Interesting! I don’t know if it’s the best place as I’ve never tried to do it somewhere else but if I compare Berlin and San Francisco, I think the cost of living in SF is extremely high and in Berlin it’s much lower so there’s a lot more creative people there and more diversity, so I feel like having that around me is more inspirational. I’m looking forward to hiring people from all different walks of life with different perspectives. I think in the creator industry as well it’s cool because a lot of people who work in tech in Berlin are creative themselves so they can bring a creative perspective into the product.WHO INSPIRES YOU MOST IN A PROFESSIONAL/PERSONAL SENSE?I think in general I can be inspired by anyone, so I feel like it’s hard to pinpoint one person who inspires me the most. Different people inspire me in different ways!2021 WAS A RECORD YEAR FOR FEMALE FOUNDED START-UPS IN EUROPE BUT YOU SEE PEOPLE TALKING PARTICULARLY ON LINKEDIN ABOUT FEMALE FOUNDERS BEING ‘OVER MENTORED AND UNDERFUNDED’ – DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT AND WHAT DO YOU THINK CAN BE DONE ABOUT IT?There’s been data published that shows that female founders find it harder to get funding, and I’ve read articles how when a female founder is in a meeting with an investor, she will tend to ask questions that would ‘lift’ male founders up, so I think there probably is still a long way to go. We got lucky with our funding round, but I think it’s also because Jen my co-founder came from VC and knew how to ‘play the game’ and we wouldn’t have got the funding that we did without that network. I don’t know how to fix the problem; we have to help people out by making connections but that’s a small part of a systemic problem.HALF OF YOUR ANGEL INVESTORS ARE WOMEN OR PEOPLE FROM UNDERREPRESENTED GROUPS – WHICH IS AN AMAZING STATISTIC. DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION IS AT THE CORE OF WHAT YOU DO, SO WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE TO OTHER, MORE ESTABLISHED, COMPANIES TO ENSURE THESE AREN’T JUST BUZZWORDS AND ARE INTEGRAL TO THEIR ECOSYSTEMS AS WELL?One of the biggest problems in bigger companies is the number of women in technical roles, so just making an active effort to hire more diversely, whether that’s making the job descriptions more inclusive, or having diverse pipelines, and there are recruitment companies (like SR2!) that can help with that if they can’t do that themselves. I think one thing is that with women and minorities, many people don’t want to be the first one. It’s a topic I could talk about for hours and hours! There are no quick solutions – it will take time and a lot of effort for companies to become diverse, and it’s also about making sure that when those people are hired that they aren’t just statistics but rather that they have the career paths to grow and move up the ladder.WHAT CAN MILLENNIALS LEARN FROM GEN Z?I am the millennial that needs to learn from Gen Z! the most interesting thing I think is that for a lot of people growing up today, they don’t see themselves going into traditional roles and industries, and they would rather follow their passion and become a creator. I think that learning that you can and should try to work on your own terms rather than follow someone else’s dream, I think just the fact that it’s possible, is something we can all learn. Maybe if I’d grown up in the Gen Z world, I wouldn’t have ended up working for big tech companies myself!DREAM DINNER PARTY GUESTS, WHAT’S ON THE MENU AND WHAT’S ON THE SPEAKER?I’m a person who thinks that every person I meet or run into has something to offer and something I can learn, and I love meeting people with new perspectives, I would be happy to find random people off the street and invite them to my dinner party so they can teach me something interesting! Food-wise I would make Chinese food as you can have a bunch of different plates and there’s different options for everyone. I really enjoy cooking, but it would depend on what my mood is that day. For music, myself and the other founders have created a Passionfroot playlist, so we could have that in the background, but I really like listening to albums which makes me not a great party DJ!BECAUSE OF THE ROLE THAT SOCIAL MEDIA PLAYS IN OUR LIVES ARE WE ALL CREATORS NOW?I think to some extent yes. There’s this concept of the creator economy, which is big in the tech world, but we are targeting the passion economy, which is anyone who has a passion that they want to somehow market and monetise online, so we would say that Passionfroot is part of this passion economy. Some of our customers are people who are like tax consultants making TikTok’s to teach people about taxes for example! Anyone who is building an audience by sharing what they care about and finding their niche on the internet is most definitely a creator and that’s why we also think this opportunity to support creators is really huge, because in the future people from traditional industries are going to quit their jobs and then just become creators.2021 WAS A HUGE YEAR FOR PASSIONFROOT BUT WHAT IS ON THE CARDS FOR 2022 AND BEYOND?2021 was all about research and groundwork for us, and when we got our funding. In 2022 its about shipping our product and starting to deliver value to the creators, because we have a lot of ambition, but the first step is building something that creators love and need, and slowly adding more and more functionality so we can support every part of their business.ANY ADVICE TO YOUNG WOMEN WHO ARE INTERESTED IN A CAREER IN TECH?This is an interesting question for me because I grew up in an environment where a career in tech was a no-brainer as I was always surrounded by it. When I was at university, I saw that students who didn’t have a computer science background in high school struggled a lot to programme. And it’s not because they were less capable, its rather that the more exposure you have to it the better you’re going to be. Don’t look at how much better people are doing than you, it’s likely they had more time, exposure and privileges that allowed them to get to where they are. I believe that anyone can programme, everyone should be able to work in tech, so don’t be afraid to try!WHAT IS THE MANTRA THAT YOU LIVE BY?Be kind to other people and don’t worry so much about what other people think.Thanks so much for speaking to us Michelle, you rock! #womenrockAn interview by Eleanor McCloskeyA voice for diversity in Tech and Engineering 

Zuza Kopacka came to the UK when she was only 16, speaking only a little English, without really knowing anyone over here. Facing the usual life challenges and a tricky language barrier, her drive and, what she calls her ‘stubbornness’ helped her get through some tough early years and land her a dream role at Basekit.Here, Natalie speaks to Zuza about the challenges she had to overcome – how working at Costa Coffee created transferable skills for a career in tech and what it means to not being able to jump higher than your own bum! Read on and all will be revealed…ZUZA, I’D LOVE YOU TO START BY TELLING US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR STORY SO FAR…I grew up in Warsaw, Poland where I was raised by two amazing women, my mum and my grandma. They gave me a lot of freedom and trust which allowed me to always follow my dreams but also learn from my own mistakes. I did well at school and had a good group of close friends, however I always felt a little sceptic when thinking about my future over there. At the age of 15 I met my half brother and his family who invited me to spend the summer with them here in Bristol. I fell in love with the city and started to consider moving, unfortunately the following year my nan passed away and this made the decision to move an easier one.YOU CAME TO THE UK WHEN YOU WERE ONLY 16, SPEAKING ONLY A LITTLE ENGLISH (I WOULD HAVE NEVER KNOWN SPEAKING TO YOU NOW), ALSO WITHOUT REALLY KNOWING ANYONE OVER HERE – A VERY BRAVE THING TO DO! CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT THAT WAS LIKE AND WHETHER THERE WAS ANYTHING THAT HELPED YOU SETTLE?The beginning was tough, I was now facing usual life challenges and also struggled with breaking the language barrier. I remember putting on my headphones only to take a break from hearing English which I wanted to understand so much but couldn’t . There were times I wanted to fly back but my stubbornness, the thought of the life I wanted here and above all the support from my brother and his wonderful partner helped me get through that period.YOU MENTIONED THAT YOU WORKED AT COSTA COFFEE FOR 10 YEARS BEFORE PLUCKING UP THE COURAGE TO CHANGE CAREERS AND GO INTO TECH. IS THERE ANY ADVICE YOU’D GIVE TO SOMEONE WHO’D LIKE TO GET INTO TECH BUT MAY THINK THEY DON’T HAVE THE SKILLS?Think outside the box! Working at costa was my first ever job, and I didn’t think that the skills I gained there could help me get a job anywhere else but hospitality. I was wrong. We all have transferable skills, with the customer service experience, film degree and one extra language I landed a Support Agent role at Baskit, where I currently work. The process of finding a job and getting an interview can be very difficult. Like you mentioned I worked in a coffee shop for 10 years, feeling stuck and helpless at times, so I get it! It might not be obvious where your skills, whether gained from uni course, a job, books or life experience, can take you but it can be further than you currently think. I understand it might not be easy to see that yourself – people say I don’t always give myself enough credit. If you’re finding it hard my advice would be to reach out to others, career advisers, friends, whoever you can and don’t just think of your set of skills as something that restricts your career choices, think of your skills as possibilities and explore them. Skills you thought didn’t count, might.My current role isn’t highly technical. As a Quality Assurance Tester at BaseKit I don’t test the code per-se, I test the functionality of the software we build, mainly from a user perspective. I have definitely learnt a lot over the past year, I even tried my strength at coding a basic website, but I started without that knowledge. BaseKit trusted me with the skills I had to offer at the time and I’ve just built on it since.4. IT’S QUITE THE CHANGE OF CAREER! WHERE DID YOU HEAR ABOUT TECH AND WHAT WAS IT THAT ATTRACTED YOU TO IT?Since I was a child I enjoyed spending time on the computer and with my camera. Back then I thought nothing of it, I was just a kid who liked playing games and taking portraits of people but looking back I believe that that’s when my interests started developing.After I moved to England I picked my camera back up. I did a media course at college and after that I got accepted into uni to do a Film course. I found that I enjoyed specialising in more technical roles where I practised using a variety of cameras and editing software.Recently I learnt that creativity plays a big part in tech and in being a QA Tester. I often have to think outside the box and put myself into the user’s shoes. I test various ways in which the app could be used taking into consideration the functionality but also the look and the feel of the software.Also my maternal uncle was a computer specialist, maybe you can inherit it 😉ONE OF YOUR MANY ACHIEVEMENTS WAS GETTING A 1ST CLASS HONOURS AT UWE FOR FILM, WITH YOUR FINAL FILM SHOWN AT MAJOR FESTIVALS AROUND THE WORLD! (AMAZING!). AS THE DIRECTOR YOU WERE THE ONLY FEMALE IN THE TEAM, HOW DID YOU FIND THAT AND WAS THERE ANYTHING THAT HELPED YOU WITH MANAGING THAT PARTICULAR TEAM?I couldn’t have asked for a better team. I got to work with very talented film students from my year and they happened to be male. My uni year was pretty diverse so there was no obvious reason why. Of course I had some doubts about whether I could manage the team by myself, especially with the project being my final one. However, with all the help and support I received from my amazing tutor and all round great woman, Freya Billington, I believed I could do it. The team liked my idea, we had a similar vision and the same goal so we did our best to make it happen.I think what helped in the end was not treating it differently than any other project.YOU SAY THAT A BIG HELP IN GETTING WHERE YOU ARE TODAY HAS BEEN DOWN TO HAVING SEVERAL FEMALE MENTORS THROUGHOUT YOUR LIFE. WHO HAS HELPED YOU THE MOST AND WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS IMPORTANT IN TECH ESPECIALLY?I’ve been extremely lucky to have met some amazing females throughout my life to whom I still look up to and turn to when in need. My mum, my brother’s partner Karolina, Elisha who was my tutor at college, Freya and many more, they all showed me how important it is to have a mentor, someone who has faced similar challenges, who believes in you and wants to see you succeed.After finishing ESOL (English for Speakers of Other Languages), I got accepted to do a Creative Media course at college. I was still afraid to speak in front of people and struggled to understand group conversations. Gina, who was one of the first classmates I got to know, always made sure I wasn’t alone. We spent lunch breaks together, she always tried to include me in the conversations, explain anything I struggled to understand and wasn’t afraid to correct me when needed. We are still very good friends and also currently working for the same company. She’s the one who helped me realise I had the skills to go into tech and told me about the available position at Basekit.Tech is a male-dominated industry and as a woman who only just started her journey here I doubt myself at times, I lack the confidence to speak up and share my opinions. Having female mentors has given me a sense of security and their support and faith in myself has given me the courage to keep going and the confidence that one day I can be like them.YOU’RE STILL EARLY ON IN YOUR TECH CAREER AS A QA WITH BASEKIT, HOW’S IT BEEN GOING SO FAR AND WHAT’S IT LIKE TO WORK IN TECH?It’s been going good so far. There have been a lot of challenges but with everyone being friendly and always open to help it’s easy to settle in and feel like a part of the team.Something I love about BaseKit is that everyone, besides their sole duties, also holds knowledge about other specific areas of the business or the software. We come together well as a company and a team to support each other, share the knowledge and teach/ learn new skills.Since working in tech I don’t feel stuck anymore. There are plenty of career paths and opportunities for further development. I’m currently taking a ISTQB Software Testing Foundation course and Basekit has been very supportive with the tools and flexible with the time I need to study and to pass the end exam.INTERNATIONAL WOMEN’S DAY TOOK PLACE LAST MONTH AND THE THEME WAS #BREAKTHEBIAS, I’D LOVE TO KNOW WHAT BIAS YOU’D LIKE TO BREAK…Over the years that I worked at costa my colleagues and I were made to feel belittled on a number of occasions. Directly, unconsciously, jokingly or not people working in hospitality and any other working sector are in no way, or should be treated differently. Working in hospitality doesn’t have to mean that you weren’t good at school or that you do not have an ambition. It can be someone’s career of choice, it could be one of the stops whilst travelling the world, a side hustle, or just an in between place whilst figuring out what to do next – just like me.I also know that I’d love to be a mum one day, and I hate the fact that it makes women less employable. I know a lot of mums who kick ass every day. It’s a full time job requiring multitasking, planning, organising, managing and leading. When you can be a mum, you can be anything. It’s one of the biggest challenges in life.LASTLY, DO YOU HAVE A FAVOURITE QUOTE THAT YOU LIVE YOUR LIFE BY…My mum used to say “wyżej dupy nie podskoczysz” which means you can’t jump higher than your own bum. I found it funny of course, but as I’ve gotten older I started realising that what she meant was that you can’t do better than your best. I believe the ambition should be to always better yourself, not just to be better than others. Nothing wrong with a bit of competitiveness of course but as long as I feel like I’ve done enough and I’m satisfied with my own progress if I fail to get the position or if I fail to pass this exam but I have done as much as I could I didn’t fail myself. I still became better than I was before. Don’t get me wrong, I’m only just learning how to live by it, I still happen to be too hard on myself, at times ignoring all the work I’ve done to achieve everything I have so far but then I try to remember that we are the only person we’ll always be with so it is important that we are proud of ourselves, recognize every little success and take away the lesson from every speed bump on the road.

Steve Dalley recently spoke with some of the incredible team at AND Digital to chat about their beginnings, struggles & successes and what we can all be doing to encourage more women and underrepresented groups into the wonderful world of tech. Tina Howell, Charlie Newman and Sophie Cosgrove all had very interesting and insightful stories when it came to increasing diversity in technology.All three of them had a different path into IT proving there is no right or wrong way to enter the world of tech.AND Digital pose a fantastic opportunity for those entering the industry with their graduate/apprenticeship programme as well as those career tech professionals looking to further their career.THANK YOU TINA, SOPHIE AND CHARLIE FOR YOUR TIME AND SHARING YOUR STORIES WITH US. TELL US ABOUT YOURSELF AND YOUR AND DIGITAL JOURNEY SO FAR.Tina – I have worked for AND Digital for coming up to four years now and am the Exec for Cloud Engineering in the North. I look after a lot of Engineers such as Sophie and also have a team of Engagement Leads like Charlie. We help clients build Cloud platforms and move their applications in AWS, GCP and AzureCharlie – I’m the Engagement Lead and Disco Diva for Cloud Engineering in the North. I’ve been with AND Digital for just over four years. My role is all about enabling our clients to achieve their goals through digital transformation within cloud infrastructure. I also support our Cloud Engineers on collaborating with the client teams.Sophie – My title is Associate Cloud Engineer and bookworm. I am a Cloud Engineer that came through the Cloud Academy which is set up to help juniors get into the industry. I specialise in Amazon Web Services so I help clients with a focus on that but whilst also looking into other platforms as well and integrating that into DevOps technologiesHOW DID YOU GET INTO THE INDUSTRY?Sophie – I actually did Psychology at University and I came out of it not really knowing exactly what I wanted to do but gathered after doing some work experiences that a psychology role wasn’t what I wanted. During University I was a Maths and English tutor and I really liked the problem-solving side of Maths so I wanted something similar to that but had never been exposed to tech so it took a while to figure out coding was really similar to this and what I enjoyed. I got into Python, learning it myself, then did a DevOps boot camp that featured Cloud. I later came across AND Digital and it was exactly what I wanted to do in my career so joined AND in Cloud Engineer role.Tina – I got a degree from Huddersfield University in Computing and was the only female on the course. I joined as the only female technical person at Compaq Computers which was taken over by HP. I then moved on to Vodafone and now have years of experience in many different roles gaining experience in a lot of areas. However, my main area of love has always been infrastructure and operations as I’ve always loved building stuff and problem-solving. My key element is that I can take what customers see as a big issue and convert that into what they actually need. My end goal was always to build a cloud practice at AND Digital so it’s certainly been a demanding four years to build the Cloud business in the North.Charlie – I have quite a varied career as I had nothing to do with Tech before AND. My background is human resources specialising in learning and development and that’s how I joined AND Digital. When I joined there were only 300 in the business and four years later we’re at over 1000 so my role was to go around and set-up the new clubs and business units helping the teams understand what we deliver to our clients and embed that culture. After three and a half years I was looking for something to push me out of my comfort zone and something that really challenges me. I was on a walk with Tina one day and she mentioned about joining the cloud practice which led me to take on the role of Engagement Lead within the Cloud Engineering team.DO YOU THINK DEGREES ARE ESSENTIAL TO HELP YOU GET INTO IT?Tina – I don’t think you need a degree to get into IT anymore. 10/15 years ago it was set on a precipitous but I think employers need to change that and use apprenticeships and building your own training programmes like Cloud Academy to bring more people in to be more inclusive and diverse. Looking back on it, I would have preferred this route rather than getting into debt and going down the university route to give more flexibility and not worry about a degreeSophie – I think university degrees help provide you with a structure and encourages you to do a lot of learning on your own. I think with tech there are so many things you aren’t going to know so you need to be comfortable to go and research to find out those things by yourself. Thankfully there are companies like AND that don’t require a specific degree and help get people into the industry who otherwise wouldn’t necessarily have the opportunity.Charlie – I think this comes down to how you learn best and your learning style. I have a number of qualifications but didn’t go to university because my learning style is much more hands-on and sitting in a classroom or researching on my own doesn’t always bring the best out of me. I think it’s important to reflect on your learning styles and then look into what might be the best thing for you whether that is university or apprenticeships. This comes down to having determination and a desire to learn and I believe these are the main things that helps to get into an IT role.WHAT DO YOU THINK CAN BE DONE AT BOTH PERSONAL AND BUSINESS LEVELS TO ATTRACT UNDERREPRESENTED GROUPS INTO TECH?Tina – I think the key to think about going to those areas that you wouldn’t normally think about going. For example, you could look at going to schools in slightly less privileged areas to have the chat that IT isn’t just about developing code but showcasing the number of different paths you can take and I think this is something really important we need to demonstrate more of. We can look at introducing the different types of tech being used at a school level whilst also focusing on implementing newer and more widely used technologies in universities and stopping teaching outdated and unused technologies that have moved on. Don’t be afraid to take away the bias of it being a man’s world and target those underrepresented groups, whether it is certain minorities or women.Sophie – AND are big advocates for women and minorities in tech which I felt took a lot of pressure off me as there was a company advocating and supporting these groups which is a big thing more companies can be doing. In hindsight, I would have liked to have done a computer science degree and although it wouldn’t be directly related to what I’m doing right now, it would have given me a good foundation in technology.Charlie – One of the biggest ones is social media. If we are really pushing that social media presence, that will help people be more interested and want to find out more. AND Digital are looking into how we use platforms such as Instagram, Twitter and Facebook and how these platforms can be used to showcase what technology is all about.Another big thing is partnering with charities that are centred around helping underrepresented groups and finding out how you can support these to help attract more people into tech.WHAT BARRIERS HAVE YOU FACED TO GET TO WHERE YOU ARE TODAY?Tina – At university, I suffered with really low confidence and didn’t like standing up in front of people doing presentations and actually suffered from panic attacks as I always felt like I was being judged. In my early career, I was bullied by various organisations due to my different thoughts and feelings, and the way I spoke – back then I have a thick Irish accent. I was regularly told I shouldn’t be in tech and should just look to get married and have children because that’s what women should do. There were different extremes from being stalked to being judged in the workplace by having a break and thinking they can get away with it. When I turned 30, I changed and took a no-tolerance approach to this as it isn’t acceptable because I think work is about collaborating to achieve something and having experienced that in my early days, I wouldn’t want anyone around me to go through that. I now have a great community around me that is really supportive.Sophie – I think one of the biggest barriers is around the stereotyping and when I say I’m in tech people straight away assume I mean sales and not what I actually do. I think we have come really far getting more women into tech but until we see more of an uptake of women in senior roles people will assume you are more junior. I also feel when you ask questions, quite often people overexplain things thinking you have less knowledge about the topic but I do think we are on the way to getting rid of that.Charlie – I think I have been quite lucky and haven’t received any direct discrimination. We are very big on treating everyone equally and it’s not about who you are, where you come from or your gender but about whether you do a good job. Having said that, I have seen bias against females within tech sales, for example, being questioned on their knowledge. I’ve had such a good support network around me so thankfully I haven’t been exposed to this.PROUDEST PERSONAL AND PROFESSIONAL ACHIEVEMENT?Charlie – My proudest professional achievement was initially not being afraid to take a step into Cloud by achieving my cloud accreditations and I’m currently working towards my Cloud Practitioner having achieved two accreditations so far. My proudest personal achievement is definitely doing a skydive.Tina – This was actually my third attempt at becoming an Exec and having been told at other companies I wasn’t successful, to finally achieve what my career ambition has always been with AND was a big moment. Personally, I’ve done quite a bit from travelling the world and doing a lot of extreme things, but when I receive messages on LinkedIn from women saying they are IT because of me, that’s when I’ve known personally I’ve made a difference. The give back is a big requirement and if I can incorporate more women into tech and give them the career I’ve had, without the same problems I’ve faced, I can say I have achieved my life goal of making men and women equal.Sophie – I’ve always wanted to publish a blog post because when I first started out learning new things, I was always very appreciative that someone had taken the time to write it, their knowledge and their way of conveying it. This is something I have always wanted to do so being able to do that this year has been one of my most cherished achievements, especially putting it out on Medium as that has been a go to for me. Personally, finishing university and achieving a First was a big one for me as I did struggle during that time as at one time I thought I would have to take a year out or even drop out to then turn that around break through my own limitations and overachieve what I thought was possible, was a bit achievement.IN ONE SENTENCE, CAN YOU SUM UP YOUR CAREER SO FAR?Tina – It’s been a bumpy ride but I got there in the end but feel very fortunate and lucky and for anyone on the same journey, I hope they have a better start.Charlie – It’s been an adrenaline-filled rollercoaster, it’s had lots of up, some down and a lot of twists.Sophie – My ambition to learn overcame my fears about not following the traditional career path.WHAT ONE PIECE OF ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE TO OTHERSSophie – If you have a question, that is always a good start as it shows your interested. I think it’s important to not be afraid to ask questions because you’ll come away from that experience knowing more and having more confidence in yourself. It doesn’t matter what people think and if they think it is a basic question or not, you will end up not caring as you’ll know within yourself you’re capable.Tina – Research, research, research. There is so many things to help you get into tech now from Tech Returners, to things like Code Nation and Code Your Future. There are so many available training places now that doing your research is important to find the right fit for you and not to worry about it as everyone starts at a different point in their career. Organisations like AND Digital are a great place to start so don’t be afraid to just go for it.Charlie – Embrace your imposter syndrome and take time to reflect and then just do it. What you don’t want to do is regret anything later down the line.DO YOU HAVE ONE QUOTE YOU LIVE OR WORK BY AND WHAT IS THAT QUOTE?Charlie – Learn from yesterday, live for today and hope for tomorrow.Tina – Karma is a bitch. Treat people the way you would expect to be treated.Sophie – It’s not a silly question if you can’t answer it.Thanks so much! You three rock!